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24WildRovers (2)
Sunday, January 10, 2010

Christian Authors debate. C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, The

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Comments: 30
I was talking with 24wildrovers about C.S. Lewis, and I wrote too much to post on his profile, so I figured I should make a blog.
What do you think about Christian authors? Do you think that C.S. Lewis is too easy to understand. Do you think Tolkien had Christian Ideas in mind when he invented middle earth, or was it based off of Nordic Mythology? Any Ideas or questions or comments abt authors. Lets talk.!!
6:53 am - 30 comments - 2 Kudos - Report!
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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 3:56pm

Tolkien was the ingenius mind between the two. Lewis only included core christian beliefs when writing Narnia. Now I looked at the posts on my profile and have not read any of those books. But what makes the story of Middle Earth so much better is that it went through the whole christian, jeudism, and muslim bible and a little Nordic Mythology and included all of the simularities between each one and told a true story that can be appreciated by any reader to any religion. Tolkien took every prophecy that Lewis mentioned and put it in a way more believable story as well. How many of us believed that there are elves, dwarves and other mythical creatures when we were young. That is what makes Tolkien's Middle Earth much more believable. Lewis stuck to strict christian beliefs and said Aslan, King of Judah shall be as a Lion. And if you have read the Christian Bible you would now that the Lion is to represent Judah. But Lewis forgot about the Ephraim Bull and other analogies that would have completed the story.

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 3:57pm

They were both great minds that worked together to critique each others' work in a time were not a lot of people were making good works worth reading, but if I had to choose whom had the greatest ingenius mind I would undoubtedly chosen J R R Tolkien and his trilogy of Middle Earth.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 5:17pm

Didn't you dream about talking animals when you were young? I mena, today people read the Redwall series and other books, which have talking animals. I see what you mean with Tolkien, but I think that his analogis are much more difficult to see, and I think that Lewis's strength was that he only showed Christianity.
Another thing. Do you think it was good that Tolkien made a mash of all these different religions, instead of just drawing analogies with the one that he believed? I mean, why promote beliefs that you don't believe. I'm not sure where Tolkien brings in any Muslim ideas and I would like you to clarify that. Can you tell me where?
Believable? I don't think eather of them are believable, but that's niether here nor there. They are both fantasy.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 5:17pm

I really think you should read some more of Lewis' works. He has a much more clear and to the point writing style than Tolkien. He doesn't ramble, and he gives you the bare bones. You understand it.
Don't get me wrong though, I love Tolkien too. I just think they both have their strengths.
By the way, have you read the Silmarillion?

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 7:45pm

I'll be honest to say I have never read the Silmarillion. And eventually I will get around to it and maybe even some more of Lewis's work.

When reading the Tora, then the Bible, then the Quar'An: you will see a lot of simularities. One reference that is in all of them is the reference to King Solomon's control over Demons. These demons are referenced through the undead in the mountain. King Solomon, or Isildor, called upon them to help build and protect King Solomon's Temple. They refused so he banned them to never rest again until their oaths fulfilled. Then later the King of Aragon, or Aragorn, was to finally call upon the unresting demons to help with the fight of Armagedon, or the Battle for Middle Earth.

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 7:45pm

There is no real reference that I know of that Muslims alone carry in this story. But there is one most referenced in the Quar'An is the land that will be over-run by the "orcs." The little town of Osgilioth was the little town across the river that was over-run by these orcs. And through cross-referencing between the religious books this town is Europe. Now I do not know this for sure because there is no clear refenece in any of them. Gondor is the religious Isreal. It is the last place all people of the earth try to flea to. Then just east of that, Armageddon, is where Gandalf, Jesus, comes to through the steward, Ephraim, off the throne and to give the Anti-Christ another defeat. After the Thousand year Satan was banned to the darkness, he comes back with Gog and Magog for the final battle, at the Gates of Mordor. Then Frodo, the Littlest of All, defeats Saron and the Battle for Middle Earth is Over.

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 7:49pm

I do believe that both Lewis and Tolkien were the greatest minds of their time, but their styles are very different. But do recognize this story has been told many times, like the recently popular Aragon series. But like the differences between the Narnia and the Middle Earth series, Aragon has some prophecies and doctrine that is not mentioned by Lewis or Tolkien.

If I forgot to answer any of your questions just ask it again and I will try to answer with the best of my knowledge.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 9:16pm

Just to clarify, by Aragon to you mean Eragon? the series about Dragons etc?
I see what you mean with the similarities between the Tora, Bilble, and the Quar'An. I have not read all of the Quar'An, but remember that the Tara is part Bible, and (I know might get critiscised for this because it is just speculation) but the Quar'An is probobly imitating the Bible, just like the Book of Morman. Put very crudely, I believe they are knock-offs.
I agree with everything you have said about Tolkien. I just don't think that the Narnia books are as childish as you make them out to be. They are just simpler, and more home-y. How ever you spell that.
I think the similarities Lewis draws with, for example, the scene in the Voyage of the Dawn Treader when Aslan makes Eustace remove his his dragon hide and he cant and then Aslan takes it off, are wonderful. Man cannot save himself, God has to help.
I'm not done but I have to go for now.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 10:04pm

Okay, I'm back.
someone asked Tolkien if his works were allegory, and he said that they were not. So while I believe that there are aspects of Christianity, (Allusions, metephores etc) I don't believe the whole thing is an allegory. (Where all the main caracters have direct correlations to caricters in another book.)
I dissagree with what you said about Gandalf being Jesus. In the Silmarrilion, you read that Gandalf was one of what they called the Valar, which are like arch-angels. He was not the most powerful being. If I remember correctly, there were two orders that were above him. The creator was called Eru or Arda, or Iluvatar, he made the Ainar, who are called the Holy ones. Melkor was one of the Ainar, and he went bad and is the equivalent of Satan. I think Saron was also one of the Valar, like Gandalf.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 10:04pm

All this to say that I don't think Gandalf is the equivalent of Jesus. Although he did sacrifice himself at Kaza Dun and return from the dead, he was created and he was not perfect. He had a very short temper.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 10:08pm

By the way, Lewis thought that Tolkien took too long to write his books (He called him a glacier) and Tolkien thought that Lewis wrote his books far too quickly. Lewis always wrote first drafts, and Tolkien always rewrote over and over again. They had very different writing styles. It's interesting how they were such close friends and yet they were so opposite in may ways.

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 1:17am

re-chorder wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 at 2:04pm :
He had a very short temper.
If you remember right Jesus had a very short temper as well. When he found all of the hypocrites in his church what did he do? He took his belt out and started to chase them out. He also got mad at Pipen a lot because Pipen was to represent the common man; not entirely bad but not too bright either.

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 1:30am

re-chorder wrote on Jan 10th, 2010 at 2:04pm :
Okay, I'm back.
someone asked Tolkien if his works were allegory, and he said that they were not. So while I believe that there are aspects of Christianity, (Allusions, metephores etc) I don't believe the whole thing is an allegory. (Where all the main caracters have direct correlations to caricters in another book.)
I dissagree with what you said about Gandalf being Jesus. In the Silmarrilion, you read that Gandalf was one of what they called the Valar, which are like arch-angels. He was not the most powerful being. If I remember correctly, there were two orders that were above him. The creator was called Eru or Arda, or Iluvatar, he made the Ainar, who are called the Holy ones. Melkor was one of the Ainar, and he went bad and is the equivalent of Satan. I think Saron was also one of the Valar, like Gandalf.
The two orders ahead of Jesus Christ is God himself, and the Serephim (Firey Ones who stand on the right hand of God.)

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 1:31am

And there are a lot of writers that say they have no analogies, but there are so many that are completely unmistakeable. Like for instance the recent popularity of the Author for the Golden Compass. He says there is absolutely no references to anything christian, but if you look closely it is completely against the Christian Church. Now a lot of people it is against all christians because he kills god, but again this is a metaphor. Here god was to represent the man you pray to every night before bed; but there is another god. The real god is untangible being in this perspective. But here it talks about how the Christian Church wants to have absolut and complete control over everything, even intergalactic worlds. But Laura, or Frodo, or Lucy, uses the instruments of god to overcome all of that. The Ilithiometer, or liahona, was used to find the way and the truth in all things.

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 1:31am

Or Urik, or Aragorn, or Eragon, went back to his homeland and overthrough Ephraim, or the Steward off the throne and claim what was his. So as you can see, even though they say they don't, there are a lot of anlogies, sometimes ildiliberate, that writers use all of the time.

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 1:36am

Now I can see your point about how all of these can be a complete coinsindence but there are many books that refer to the exact same story so whether they know it or not but these stories all refer to certain scripture that some find holy. But I believe that some writers do it deliberately and say they don't so they don't have to explain to the stupid populas what it is they really are saying.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 4:36am

But Jesus' anger was a righteous anger, he had every reason to be angry. When Gandalf says "fool of a Took" and gets angry at Pipin all the time, he is letting his temper get away with him. He knows this, and when he ackowleges it, it is proof that it is not a righteous anger.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 4:40am

So you think there is (1) God, (2) Seraphim, and (3) Jesus? I don't want to misunderstand, but you are saying that the Saraphim are above Jesus in power, (Or at least order of creation) and that God, who is above them both, is not equal to Jesus?

I am a Christian, and I believe in the Trinity. God, Christ, and The Holy Spirit and three in one. As the Westminster shorter Catecism says, "equal in wisdom and power." And No angel is above Christ.

Oh, and in John 1, "In the beginning was the Word, (this word is christ)...He was with God in the beginning."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but It sounds like you are saying that Jesus is not God.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 4:41am

With your last comments, I see what you mean, and you can read that into any book. I see the similarities, and I don't really object to them. I don't think, however, that Tolkien would lie just to be left alone. If he didn't want to communicate with the Populus, he wouldn't have written them three long books in the first place.

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 6:01pm

re-chorder wrote on Jan 11th, 2010 at 8:40pm :
So you think there is (1) God, (2) Seraphim, and (3) Jesus? I don't want to misunderstand, but you are saying that the Saraphim are above Jesus in power, (Or at least order of creation) and that God, who is above them both, is not equal to Jesus?
Well I don't believe in the Trinity so for all of those who do disregaurd everything I am about to say in this post.

God is god so he is first. The Seraphim are second because they are the brightest of all. They do not actually call heaven home they live on Kolob, the brightest planet closest to god. Then jesus is third because he is here with us. He is with us to help us progress through the levels of the galaxy to him. Then God will grant us who make it close to Kolob our own godliness to make our own galaxies, worlds, and humans, and ultimately progress as god is progressing.

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 6:05pm

re-chorder wrote on Jan 11th, 2010 at 8:36pm :
But Jesus' anger was a righteous anger, he had every reason to be angry. When Gandalf says "fool of a Took" and gets angry at Pipin all the time, he is letting his temper get away with him. He knows this, and when he ackowleges it, it is proof that it is not a righteous anger.
I do not have the bible memerized as most of you might, but by what I remember Jesus had a little temper for the foolish of the earth. Pipin was to represent the common man. Then if you remember, some of the stories told about him incuded places where he was angered at the people who so buntedly ignored all that went around him. (I think I remember reading this in the Quar'An, but I am not sure.)

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 6:08pm

re-chorder wrote on Jan 11th, 2010 at 8:41pm :
With your last comments, I see what you mean, and you can read that into any book. I see the similarities, and I don't really object to them. I don't think, however, that Tolkien would lie just to be left alone. If he didn't want to communicate with the Populus, he wouldn't have written them three long books in the first place.
Well a lot of times I write great works of art in my English classes that incude lots of anolgies and I reject using them just so the intellectuals of the class can find them for themselves, and I am sure Tolkien wrote the long trilogy just to have something to spend his time.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 9:01pm

24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 at 1:01pm :
re-chorder wrote on Jan 11th, 2010 at 8:40pm :

Well I don't believe in the Trinity so for all of those who do disregaurd everything I am about to say in this post.

God is god so he is first. The Seraphim are second because they are the brightest of all. They do not actually call heaven home they live on Kolob, the brightest planet closest to god. Then jesus is third because he is here with us. He is with us to help us progress through the levels of the galaxy to him. Then God will grant us who make it close to Kolob our own godliness to make our own galaxies, worlds, and humans, and ultimately progress as god is progressing.

I don't know If you want to debate this. But I disagree 100%. This does not really pertain to our debate though. Tell me if you want to and we could start another blog.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 9:02pm

24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 at 1:05pm :
re-chorder wrote on Jan 11th, 2010 at 8:36pm :
But Jesus' anger was a righteous anger, he had every reason to be angry. When Gandalf says "fool of a Took" and gets angry at Pipin all the time, he is letting his temper get away with him. He knows this, and when he ackowleges it, it is proof that it is not a righteous anger.
I do not have the bible memerized as most of you might, but by what I remember Jesus had a little temper for the foolish of the earth. Pipin was to represent the common man. Then if you remember, some of the stories told about him incuded places where he was angered at the people who so buntedly ignored all that went around him. (I think I remember reading this in the Quar'An, but I am not sure.)

But what i am saying is that his was a righteous anger, while Gandalf's was sinful.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 9:04pm

24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 at 1:08pm :
re-chorder wrote on Jan 11th, 2010 at 8:41pm :
With your last comments, I see what you mean, and you can read that into any book. I see the similarities, and I don't really object to them. I don't think, however, that Tolkien would lie just to be left alone. If he didn't want to communicate with the Populus, he wouldn't have written them three long books in the first place.
Well a lot of times I write great works of art in my English classes that incude lots of anolgies and I reject using them just so the intellectuals of the class can find them for themselves, and I am sure Tolkien wrote the long trilogy just to have something to spend his time.

Tolkien was a professor, he had all kinds of things to do. He wrote those book for the public. (I'm not saying that he didn't enjoy writing them.)

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 9:24pm

Well back to the original subject :p I think that C S Lewis wrote the Narnia books for little kids, and The Middle Earth books I think were more suitable for older audiances. Lewis is fun to read maybe once or twice, but it was Tolkien's Middle Earth that captures my eye time and time again.

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 9:25pm

re-chorder wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 at 1:01pm :
24WildRovers wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 at 1:01pm :
re-chorder wrote on Jan 11th, 2010 at 8:40pm :

Well I don't believe in the Trinity so for all of those who do disregaurd everything I am about to say in this post.

God is god so he is first. The Seraphim are second because they are the brightest of all. They do not actually call heaven home they live on Kolob, the brightest planet closest to god. Then jesus is third because he is here with us. He is with us to help us progress through the levels of the galaxy to him. Then God will grant us who make it close to Kolob our own godliness to make our own galaxies, worlds, and humans, and ultimately progress as god is progressing.

I don't know If you want to debate this. But I disagree 100%. This does not really pertain to our debate though. Tell me if you want to and we could start another blog.
Well That is actually a debate I don't really feal like fighting as much, so maybe later :p

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 13th, 2010 1:57am

I think I'm going to start another blog about it.

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re-chordera wrote on Jan 13th, 2010 1:58am

You should read some of Lewis's other books. they are aimed at an older audience. I'd suggest the space trilogy or Mere Christianity.

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24WildRovers wrote on Jan 13th, 2010 1:33pm

Alright I will go and see if the Library has any of those books and see what your talking about. Thanks :D

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