Metalcore is not hardcore. The problem is that most of the people that cry "Untr00! It's not metal at all it's all breakdowns therefore it's hardcore!" These people talk from a metal point of few, pretty much everybody that I hear claim Metalcore is hardcore only really listens to metal, and not any actual hardcore. Whereas the people that listen to hardcore are more likely to say that it's metal, or that it's neither metal or hardcore.
And of course, anybody that says "Metalcore isn't hardcore because it's shit!" should be shot.
ride-the-spiral wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 11:54am : Metalcore is not hardcore. The problem is that most of the people that cry "Untr00! It's not metal at all it's all breakdowns therefore it's hardcore!" These people talk from a metal point of few, pretty much everybody that I hear claim Metalcore is hardcore only really listens to metal, and not any actual hardcore. Whereas the people that listen to hardcore are more likely to say that it's metal, or that it's neither metal or hardcore.
And of course, anybody that says "Metalcore isn't metal because it's shit!" should be shot.
'nu-metalcore' is preferable to 'modern metalcore', but I suppose they get the same meaning across. As long as it's clear that it's a completely distinct style from original metalcore, also called 'metallic hardcore' (Integrity, Converge, Botch, and so on)
Right, right. There's a huge difference between the metalcore styles that are, let's say, As I Lay Dying and Converge. Converge is clearly on the hardcore side of things while AILD is not.
It just irritates me when I hear people say bands like AILD are hardcore. They're not. They're like half-assed American melodeath with screams and breakdowns. Even then though, there are plenty of breakdowns in melodeath.
Jon777 wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 6:28pm : Metalcore is a mix between metal and hardcore. Everyone is right :|
Right, but there's really three categories of it. Metallic hardcore, hardcore influenced metal, and some bands that don't fit in either area.
The issue is that so many people narrow mindedly believe that metalcore in it's entirety is not metal. Instead, they insist that bands like Trivium and All That Remains are hardcore.
this pisses me off so much, why is it so f**king important, metalcore is hardcore not metal, just because they (the metalcore band) says they are metal it doesn't mean they are, if chuck norris came out in a dress would he be classed as female because he looks like a girl or male because hes a dude that says he a girl? same goes for metalcore.
fumb duck wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 11:43pm : this pisses me off so much, why is it so f**king important, metalcore is hardcore not metal, just because they (the metalcore band) says they are metal it doesn't mean they are, if chuck norris came out in a dress would he be classed as female because he looks like a girl or male because hes a dude that says he a girl? same goes for metalcore.
And these are the types of responses I'll be responding to in the next section of this blog. Keep it coming.
The FIRST wave of metalcore (Converge, 7 Angels 7 Plagues, Botch, Shai Hulud) Pretty much added heavier, more melodic riffs and complex structures to the might that is hardcore. The SECOND wave is, how I see it, just metal. You point out a hardcore song that sounds like any new metalcore band. Breakdowns don't count. Why? Because breakdowns come from both hardcore and metal.
While we're on breakdowns, there is a huge difference in a hardcore breakdown and a metal breakdown. Hardcore slows down, gets a bit sludgy. Metal/metalcore uses palm muted open chords/diminished chords to make it brutal.
And for the record, grindcore is an offshoot of punk. Grind came out before death metal. Napalm Death and the like wanted a heavier kid of vocals, instead of just yelling, so they growled. The played punk faster, and downtuned. There you have it.
Internal Chaos wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 5:10am : *cracks knuckles*
The FIRST wave of metalcore (Converge, 7 Angels 7 Plagues, Botch, Shai Hulud) Pretty much added heavier, more melodic riffs and complex structures to the might that is hardcore. The SECOND wave is, how I see it, just metal. You point out a hardcore song that sounds like any new metalcore band. Breakdowns don't count. Why? Because breakdowns come from both hardcore and metal.
While we're on breakdowns, there is a huge difference in a hardcore breakdown and a metal breakdown. Hardcore slows down, gets a bit sludgy. Metal/metalcore uses palm muted open chords/diminished chords to make it brutal.
And for the record, grindcore is an offshoot of punk. Grind came out before death metal. Napalm Death and the like wanted a heavier kid of vocals, instead of just yelling, so they growled. The played punk faster, and downtuned. There you have it.
jetfuel495 wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 6:20pm : Jon777 wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 6:28pm :Metalcore is a mix between metal and hardcore. Everyone is right :|Right, but there's really three categories of it. Metallic hardcore, hardcore influenced metal, and some bands that don't fit in either area.
The issue is that so many people narrow mindedly believe that metalcore in it's entirety is not metal. Instead, they insist that bands like Trivium and All That Remains are hardcore.
Saying that ATR and Trivium aren't metal is absolutely ridiculous.
Metalcore gets relegated to the Hardcore forum because the Metal forum is huge and the Hardcore forum is much smaller. Having all of the metalcore bands in the Metal forum would A) make it too big for the mods to handle, and B) cause a lot of flame wars between the metalcore fans and the forum regulars, thus making problem A a lot worse.
The Hardcore forum can handle them, and most metalcore fans associate more with the hardcore scene anyway.
It's got more to do with the logistics of the site than with actual genre boundaries.
Data Helmet wrote on Feb 1st, 2010 at 9:04pm : I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I could just as easily say "Most modern metalcore is hardcore, not metal. Prove me wrong."
I'm not really seeing your point, of course you could just say that, but you'd get alot of good arguments proving it wrong. Jetfuel is inviting people to give their reasons why they disagree with the original statement.
I partially agree with this. I just realized one of my favourite bands was signed to a death metal label but sound very metalcore-ish. They are both classed in the technical death metal and metalcore genres. It's really a fine line.
Okeefe Is Legit wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 7:19pm : metalcore isn't hardcore, and metalcore isn't metal. Metalcore is metalcore.
Well, most metalcore is now uniquely recognizable as metalcore, and it is obvious that As I Lay Dying, KsE, Parkway Drive, and All That Remains have similar styles. I usually classify metalcore as separate from "real" metal because it has evolved in its own direction. Metalcore bands have a lot of single-note breakdowns and usually use simple major and minor scales and chords, while melodic death metal tends to have few, if any breakdowns, and those breakdowns are usually more than just the lowest possible powerchord that can be played in the tuning. Metal also uses more complex chords and scales, such as diminished/7th chords and harmonic-minor or locrian modes.
Echoplex wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 6:51pm : Okeefe Is Legit wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 7:19pm :metalcore isn't hardcore, and metalcore isn't metal. Metalcore is metalcore.Well, most metalcore is now uniquely recognizable as metalcore, and it is obvious that As I Lay Dying, KsE, Parkway Drive, and All That Remains have similar styles. I usually classify metalcore as separate from "real" metal because it has evolved in its own direction. Metalcore bands have a lot of single-note breakdowns and usually use simple major and minor scales and chords, while melodic death metal tends to have few, if any breakdowns, and those breakdowns are usually more than just the lowest possible powerchord that can be played in the tuning. Metal also uses more complex chords and scales, such as diminished/7th chords and harmonic-minor or locrian modes.
Most good metalcore is more complex then simple scales and open string chugging in drop C
First off, there is a pretty big difference between metalcore, melodeath and all that hybrid stuff in between. Lets also say that the first metalcore bands were originally hardcore bands or heavily influenced from hardcore.
Metalcore is a punk rooted genre. Its punk. Punky punky punky. You can hear it in the simplistic guitar work (don’t give me all that about how they're all good guitarists, most of the guitar work is incredibly easy to replicate) the universal vocals which I've heard in Himsa, The Ocean Collective, AILD, ATR and Ion Dissonance, and also by the incredibly cliché lyrics about 'I hate your lies and your face, SOMEHOW I'LL MAKE YOU REGRET IT' without actually explicitly saying what the vocalist is apparently going to do. All those are traits of Hardcore punk (just from pure observation, and I don’t think many bands actually realise that they all do it either).
There are only 3 things that metalcore shares with actual metal (or as its often compared to) melodic death metal: Riffs used, borrowed, re-written and recycled from Gothenburg bands (and Carcass), Double bass drum overdrive to make up for the creative rhythms which I find are DRASTICALLY lacking in metalcore (it’s all thrash snare kick snare kick snare kick with some bursts on the pedals or that nu metal beat which LoG uses a lot) and the fact that it has 'metal' in the name.
Take for example, August Burns Red. I could listen to the first 5 seconds of any song they've done and say 'that’s a metal riff' and then low and behold the vocalist starts barking in that traditional punk way of I-dont-know-what-else-to-do-so-I'll-do-what-everyo ne-else-has-done and suddenly all the music becomes like it did for all those pioneering crossover bands when the breakdown first came into being: An excuse for everyone to jump on each other like horny flying fish i.e., DA MOSH.
That’s another thing; Lets say I went to a metal concert. For example, I saw one of my favourite groove-stealers Xerath play in Camden Underworld. It was headbanging, headbanging and air guitar. With headbanging. When I went to see my 3 least favourite bands in the world play at Brixton Academy (ABR, BTBAM, JFAC.. for a friend’s birthday, and to see what was actually good about them), you could not believe the amount of Mohawks and stupid fringes there were in the front while all the kiddies (yes, kiddies, most of them probably 14) had a mild push'n'shove at the front row. That’s probably a good way of knowing if its punk or not. This is modern day stuff we're talking about, not like the dare-I-say vicious rumblers that happened in the 80's where there was blood and not smudged eyeliner.
Also for future reference, the bands credited with creating the breakdown are Cro-mags and Bad Brains, who both play hardcore. Rastafarian reggae hardcore for Bad Brains, but still hardcore.
To answer that question, one first has to answer this question: What IS metal, anyways?
Looking at metal's origins, it's down to a few bands: Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and Deep Purple. Sabbath was especially the archetype of heavy metal, with its embracing of downtuned guitars and gothic and satanic imagery. But metal didn't really "evolve" until the early 80s, when Metallica, Slayer, Diamond Head, Motorhead, Megadeth, etc. came out. And a lot of those early thrash bands were as much influenced by the punk music of the time as metalcore is today. I wouldn't say that Metallica sounds anything like Black Sabbath, generally thought of as the first "real" heavy metal band.
So over the years, many different evolutions of metal came out. Death metal, nu-metal, alternative metal, black metal, Scandinavian death metal, progressive metal, metalcore, groove metal, deathcore, avant-garde metal, and what-have-you.
So to answer the question "Is metalcore metal, and not hardcore?", well, it's technically no more "metal" in the strictest definition than Metallica, Dream Theater, In Flames, Korn, or Emperor are, as ALL of those bands are far-off evolutions of the original metal blueprint laid forth by Sabbath, Zeppelin, and Deep Purple. Metalcore is just another off-shoot or evolution of metal, just as every other modern metal band is.
Is it hardcore too? Why not? Hardcore has also had a huge number of off-shoots and evolutionary steps. Not many hardcore bands out right now sound like Black Flag or The Dead Kennedys.
So my answer to this entire blog is: In the strictest sense, metalcore is metalcore. It is an evolution of metal and hardcore, though, so in a very broad sense, which most people seem to hold of metal if such a diverse number of bands can be considered metal, metalcore is also metal, and if you really broaden the definition, it's also hardcore. But in a very strict way, metalcore is a completely distinct genre from both metal AND hardcore.
benomino324 wrote on Dec 20th, 2010 at 9:35pm : hardcore= devil wears prada & chiodos = complete faggot shit
metalcore= bullet for my valentine & atreyu = fucking awesome shit
if i had to choose, i'd say modern metalcore is closer to metal for the most part. after all, who's to really say what even is metal and what isn't anymore? it's such a loosely defined genre, when you think about it. i mean, other than low tuned guitars and shit loads of distortion, what does, lets say... Sunn O))) have in common with Nile? or what does Stratovarius have in common with Nortt? this time, only distortion. some of these are bands that are so far apart it's hard to believe they are even in the same genre.
and honestly, breakdowns are just as important to certain subgenres (or styles or whatever you call them) of metal as they are to hardcore. so saying that just because metalcore bands such as As I Lay Dying or Kill Switch Engage or All That Remains are more hardcore than metal simply for having breakdowns means that for the same reason Suffocation, Dying Fetus, and many other brutal death metal bands would have to be considered hardcore instead of metal,
as they have plenty of breakdowns, and yet oddly many people that say that they hate metalcore bands because of breakdowns are quite fond of Suffocation.
honestly though, i think that bands that play breakdowns tend to be stigmatized for it a bit, and so people hate on them just because it's cool, without having ever really bothered to listen to them, and breakdowns tend to be the same, as many bands don't want to play breakdowns because they are uncool (or perhaps because they are cool?) and totally not metal, which as i have pointed out already is certainly not true. and as Deplorable mentioned, modern metalcore is pretty much melodeath, though with more breakdowns.
that's how i see it anyways. though i am personally not very fond of modern metalcore bands. and for the record i'm not too fond of melodeath. i feel i should mention that as i know quite a few people that say they hate all metalcore, but their favorite bands are all melodeath.
just listen to the music and decide if you like it....
if you dont like it keep it to yourself and dont bitch about it....
if you want to show how smart you are and how right you are in every aspect of genreology then go write down all you know on a peice of paper and shove that up your ass....
Thrash metal was a mixture of heavy metal and hardcore punk. Old metalcore (metallic hardcore) sounds more like hardcore punk/post-hardcore with metal influence, while modern metalcore to me sounds like groove metal with hardcore punk/post-hardcore influence. So I see metalcore as an offshoot of thrash/groove metal, to be honest.
lol at people who don't think it can be metal because they don't like it
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