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Monday, November 16, 2009

Bein' Gay ain't nutin' but a choice.

Views: 2,406
Comments: 45
The main purpose of this is to allow me to copy and paste it into the forums without much hassle, but I figured I might aswell make a blog out of it. :D

I'm going to say this once, but I'm going to say it in really big letters to make up for it.

THE FACT THAT SEXUALITY IS NOT A CHOICE IS BY NO MEANS SPECULATION

Many people assume that human sexuality is a choice. It is not. I cannot stress how important it is for people to understand that. People discover their sexual orientations; they do not choose them. Sexual preference seems to develop very early, and a child's first indication of the direction of their sexual preference usually does not change as he/she matures. I'm going to outline some of the factors here, and support what I say by links to research papers by well respected psychologists, geneticists, endocrinologists and biologists published in well respected peer reviewed journals. I stress that the papers I post here only represent a fraction of the total amount of evidence confirming what I am saying, but I do have a time limit and searching for journals takes quite a long time even when you have the name of the article.

Firstly, genetics certainly plays a role, but it is not the whole story.
Let’s start with genetics anyway though.
I'm going to show two comparable and air tight twin studies showing the genetic basis in both males and females by a group of leading researchers in the field. There are more but I could post research papers all day and that would be boring.
Bailey and Pillard studied a group of male homosexuals who had twin brothers, and they found that 52% of the monozygotic twin brothers and 22% of the dizygotic twin brothers were homosexual.
Bailey JM, Pillard RC (1991). "A genetic study of male sexual orientation". Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 48 (12): 1089–96
Later they found the same story with females. The concordance rates for homosexuality were 48% for monozygotic twins and 16% for dizygotic twins.
Bailey JM, Pillard RC, Neale MC, Agyei Y. (1993 ). Heritable factors influence sexual orientation in women. Archives of General Psychiatry, 50, 217–223.

Clearly this does not account for everything as the research says. So the next thing we have to move on to is Early Hormones (which are also not a choice).
A consistent pattern of results has been observed in the research on sexuality and exposure to perinatal hormones (Ellis & Ames, 1987) , which has (for obvious reasons) focused on non-human animals.
In rats, hamsters, ferrets, pigs, zebra finches, and doggie woggies, perinatal castration of males and testosterone treatment of females have been shown to induce same-sex preferences. (Adkins-Regan, 1988; Baum et al., 1990; Hrabovzky & Hudson, 2002)
It would of course be a mistake to ignore the profound cognitive and emotional components in human sexuality which have no counterpart in laboratory animals. However it would also be a mistake to assume that an incredibly consistent pattern that runs through so many mammalian species has no relevance to humans. (Swaab, 2004)
As for human research, there have been quasi-experimental studies conducted. (Ehrhardt, 1985)
We also have to look at the fraternal birth order effect, the finding that the probability of a man's being homosexual increases as a function of the number of older brothers that he has (Blanchard, 2004; Blanchard & Lippa, 2007) . A recent study of blended families (families in which biologically related siblings were raised with adopted or step-siblings) found that the effect is related to the number of boys previously born to the mother, not the number of boys one is reared with (Bogaert, 2007).
The effect is quite large: the probability of a male's being homosexual increases by 1/3 for every older brother that he has (Puts, Jordan, & Breedlove, 2006), and an estimated 15% of homosexual men can attribute their homosexuality to this effect (Cantor et al., 2002) . It is hypothesised that some mothers become progressively more immune to some masculinising hormone in male foetuses, and the mother's immune system might deactivate the masculinising hormone in younger brothers. This is known as the maternal immune hypothesis.

Thanks for reading.
1:39 pm - 45 comments - 90 Kudos - Report!
Comments
Craigo wrote on Nov 20th, 2009 12:39pm

+2 for emphasise that it is not strictly down to DNA. Hearing 'homosexuality is genetic' is getting annoying now.

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captaincrunk wrote on Nov 20th, 2009 7:14pm

+2 for truthiness!

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captaincrunk wrote on Nov 20th, 2009 7:14pm

Forgot to actually give you the kudos.

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michal23 wrote on Nov 20th, 2009 8:59pm

There was a study that I read about in New Scientist a while back, that showed homosexual men had brain structures more similar to heterosexual women, and vice versa.

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StewieSwan wrote on Nov 21st, 2009 1:01am

Mind if I copy this and use it in debates in other forums?

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I.O.T.M wrote on Nov 22nd, 2009 12:32am

Good blog. :cheers:

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ThatGuy177 wrote on Nov 22nd, 2009 6:01pm

I agree with this.

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tayroar wrote on Nov 27th, 2009 12:11am

There is also evidence that it can be from extrenal stimuli as well. Not necesarily a choice but just outside influences, the same way some personalities are developed. I was watching something about how fetishes are developed and they hypothesized that some cases of homosexuality develop the same, and the hypothesis is that when a person is going through puberty they often get randomly aroused. When this happens their brain will sometimes subconciously absorb the immediate surroundings as a turn on. Obviously this doesn't happen all the time or we'd get off to pencils and the like but it is interesting.

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§ArmyofAngels§ wrote on Nov 28th, 2009 10:40pm

Very good, and believable.

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D&DLover wrote on Nov 29th, 2009 9:48pm

Very good and true. just wandered here from your sig :)

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herby190 wrote on Nov 30th, 2009 1:06am

Very good; +2'd. Too bad people will often go out of their way to avoid truth....

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jgbsmith wrote on Dec 3rd, 2009 9:00pm

+2

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woodenbandman wrote on Dec 5th, 2009 4:05pm

FUCK YOU BEING TALL IS A CHOICE

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sk8nalmost1394 wrote on Dec 7th, 2009 12:46am

I see you posting a lot and I agree with pretty much everything you say and you seem like a very intelligent person. +2

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FrustratedRocka wrote on Dec 19th, 2009 2:14am

+2
Great blog

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Eater of ashes wrote on Dec 20th, 2009 9:30am

Gay.

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The_Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2009 11:00am

Too true. I like you Ur all $h1t, you seem an open-minded and intelligent person. I enjoy coming across your posts on the forums :)

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yellowfrizbee wrote on Dec 23rd, 2009 11:00pm

Agreed.

The twin bit is interesting. My sister and I are identical twins from the same egg. Im 100% straight. My sister, however, is bi; almost totally all about females.

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hippie_guy wrote on Dec 27th, 2009 11:02pm

well pointed, homosexuality can't be genetic, because gays don't usually have kids :)) anyway, the thing is you can't really divide people into Straight and Gay. there are different levels of attraction to each gender for every one of us. Some people are bisexual with an inclination towards being straight, and some prefer their own gender, some can't decide. some people only have gay fantasies but never act them out.

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Ur all $h1ta wrote on Dec 28th, 2009 11:00am

hippie_guy wrote on Dec 27th, 2009 at 10:02pm :
well pointed, homosexuality can't be genetic, because gays don't usually have kids ) anyway, the thing is you can't really divide people into Straight and Gay. there are different levels of attraction to each gender for every one of us. Some people are bisexual with an inclination towards being straight, and some prefer their own gender, some can't decide. some people only have gay fantasies but never act them out.

Gay people frequently have kids.
Of course that's irrelevant, even if gay people never had kids it could easily be genetic because of the existence of recessive alleles
michal23 wrote on Nov 20th, 2009 at 7:59pm :
There was a study that I read about in New Scientist a while back, that showed homosexual men had brain structures more similar to heterosexual women, and vice versa.

Ya, there was a well publicised study that showed that, however its findings have not been able to be replicated since then.

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GisleAune wrote on Dec 29th, 2009 12:34am

Yeah, so Its true that sexuality is natural.

Most in my family are strict gay-haters. exp my litlle brother... and he is a extreme atheist too...wierd.

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GisleAune wrote on Dec 29th, 2009 12:37am

+2 again...

Im a one-egg twin, but both me and my brother are hetero.

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Venice King wrote on Jan 1st, 2010 6:09pm

Wow, way to research. Interesting studies I've not seen before :golfclap:

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Goldenfire88 wrote on Jan 4th, 2010 11:12pm

Nice job my friend.

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Firebread wrote on Jan 5th, 2010 12:41am

+2

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JackWhiteIsButts wrote on Jan 8th, 2010 1:38am

GisleAune wrote on Dec 28th, 2009 at 7:34pm :
Yeah, so Its true that sexuality is natural.

Most in my family are strict gay-haters. exp my litlle brother... and he is a extreme atheist too...wierd.
Well, since he's younger than you he has a greater chance to turn out homosexual according to the fraternal birth order effect. Google reaction formation, and everything seems to fall into place ;)

Great blog, by the way.

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Weeping_Demon7 wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 2:17am

I agree.

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Craigo wrote on Jan 17th, 2010 1:10am

I keep clicking onto the link to this blog hoping to find someone silly enough to disagree.

*remains in hope*

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Jasonbts wrote on Jan 24th, 2010 7:09pm

Amen man. Sexual attractions to the opposite sex are wired in us from birth.

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Eater of ashes wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 1:34am

Craigo wrote on Jan 16th, 2010 at 8:10pm :
I keep clicking onto the link to this blog hoping to find someone silly enough to disagree.

*remains in hope*
Plenty of people disagree, maybe they don't feel like bothering for once?

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sglover34479 wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 2:05am

Craigo wrote on Jan 16th, 2010 at 8:10pm :
I keep clicking onto the link to this blog hoping to find someone silly enough to disagree.

*remains in hope*


If you're wanting Christians to come in here and call science teh devilz then you can stop being stupid. Everyone knows being gay isn't a choice, well, the educated do, but it's simple, you can't help what you want.

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Craigo wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 1:30pm

If you're wanting Christians

Stop being presumptuous, seriously.

To the rest of your post, just please stop talking about homosexuality because it's getting quite frustrating.

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Ur all $h1ta wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 4:52pm

Eater of ashes wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 12:34am :
Plenty of people disagree, maybe they don't feel like bothering for once?

It'd be interesting to see some actual science that disagrees.

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Eater of ashes wrote on Jan 29th, 2010 4:15pm

Until scientists understand the mind (among other things) better/at all, there's not much chance.

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hugh20 wrote on Feb 25th, 2010 5:55pm

Awesome blog :) I wish I could carry this around to show people I know who think homesexuality is a choice.

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sfaune92 wrote on Mar 16th, 2010 5:55pm

I'm one of the 48 % of mono-something twins that are not. But what the hell? So many?

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hawttieblonde69 wrote on Mar 23rd, 2010 7:59pm

sfaune92 wrote on Mar 16th, 2010 at 10:55am :
I'm one of the 48 % of mono-something twins that are not. But what the hell? So many?

They don't mean that when you're a twin 52% of the time you'll be gay. They mean that 52% of the time if one twin is gay, they both are.

Sexual preference seems to develop very early, and a child's first indication of the direction of their sexual preference usually does not change as he/she matures.


Just so you know, though the majority of what you said is true, this is not. Most children begin sexual experimentation at a young age (around 8-11) and they typically experiment with same sex partners because that is their peer group. It means nothing except that they're maturing normally.

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Ur all $h1ta wrote on Mar 24th, 2010 2:42pm

hawttieblonde69 wrote on Mar 23rd, 2010 at 7:59pm :
Just so you know, though the majority of what you said is true, this is not. Most children begin sexual experimentation at a young age (around 8-11) and they typically experiment with same sex partners because that is their peer group. It means nothing except that they're maturing normally.
Sexual experimentation =/= Sexual preference.

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sfaune92 wrote on Mar 24th, 2010 3:45pm

"They don't mean that when you're a twin 52% of the time you'll be gay. They mean that 52% of the time if one twin is gay, they both are."

Could you please excuse my stupidity then. I was just misundertsanding

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Al-InWonderland wrote on Apr 5th, 2010 10:43am

THANK YOU
First reasonable thing I've seen on this forum in a while (somebody copy/pasted in another thread). A person's sexuality is not a choice in any way shape or form. There's no way to tell for sure how much nature or nurture it is, but it's certainly a bit of both.
And it's not nearly as black and white as some people like to portray it. There's straight, there's gay, and there's a massive spectrum in between

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afterthewar wrote on Jun 18th, 2010 7:17am

Thanks for that. Great Blog.

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TheBurningFish wrote on Jun 20th, 2010 2:21pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PooEhBxh0NY&feature =related

That's your blog for dummies, by the way. It's a wee bit condescending (yeah, the dissenter's named Christian. But whatever) but I notice that when you or anyone else uses this blog they say "Herp derp i aint readin no blogs maaayn". The bright colours should keep those people occupied.

This stuff applies to bisexuals and all other manner of queers, I take it?

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dann_blood wrote on Jul 27th, 2010 8:01am

Hurr science is just a conspiracy!

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guitarxo wrote on Oct 24th, 2010 4:51pm

This is really interesting. I'm linking this blog if that's ok with you to one of my friends who is gay - his dad was giving him a hard time about coming out and stuff and I think he should read this.

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due 07 wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 7:52am

+2 because gay!

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